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splash #826025 10/09/20 12:46 am
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spring tension is what holds the plates together. if clutch is slipping..... then I must need new springs or tighten up the pressure screws!

I will take pictures for you guys of the plates and post them. I almost sure the plates are fine. I will also mic them.

Last edited by splash; 10/09/20 12:51 am.

1970 Triumph tiger owner
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splash #826027 10/09/20 1:21 am
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Wrong. Check the clutch spring length, you will need calipers. If you keep tightening the springs they will become coil bound. Meaning they will have no "spring" left and will be like a piece of pipe instead of a spring. How will you know the spring length without an accurate way to measure them? Calipers/micrometers two different tools. Quit screwing around being almost sure. You said early on you did not want to buy a bunch of tools. You don't need a bunch, but you do need some. If you don't want to buy them, you bought the wrong motorcycle.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
splash #826029 10/09/20 2:29 am
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Hi Splash, There is no real way to tell clutch slip except by feel. If you are not familiar with what good feels like, small slippage would go unnoticed until it got severe.

Until you get vernier calipers you can’t move forward.
You can’t even know what springs you have without knowing wire diameter, length, coil count. The calipers shown earlier post is a dood choice. The reading can be set to fractions, mm, thousands of an inch.

How far the lever is from grip can tell you things but only if the rod & free play are perfect. Often the lever is about half way when you start feeling the clutch take up & start to move bike.
The type of friction material & tension of springs are a factor as well. So it’s not really possible to know on your bike at this time. Focus on correct parts & adjustments & lever take up just falls into place.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? That is where second guessing causes of your problems are at.

From my experience with repairs I think your plates were worn to start with. This caused low spring pressure leading to some slippage, which wears plates fast.

I suspect there was not enough slack in in clutch cable when adjusting rod.

The slip wore plates which put rod clearance to zero. Zero clearance over heats & mushrooms rod. The heat often wears bushing right end of main shaft quickly.

The screws backing out would cause slip as well.

So many factors come into play.

If you do not get the calipers & measure stack height of plates I can almost guarantee you will have another failure soon.

The photos show your top plate is too deep in basket. That is indicative of plate wear. Or... something not assembled correctly.

If you got all new parts, you could just assemble it. Adjust nuts flush with studs. Adjust rod & lever. It should work good.

Since we don’t have all new parts we must do differently to get good operation.

When do you expect the calipers to arrive?

Do not move forward until the calipers arrive.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
splash #826143 10/10/20 6:30 pm
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Hi Splash take these guys advice wink having followed this thread i am in the process of a clutch refurb and picked up on loads of advice that's been given albeit my clutch wasn't slipping it just would not free mad Not knowing what the PO had done with the clutch all sorts of little hitches have appeared 7 plate clutch having plain at both ends fitted confused so using a vernier and mic gone through all advice given making sure all within tolerance,be sure to order the correct part just found that you can get rollers 1/4" x 1/4" and 1/4" x 6mm so lengths and widths diameters etc all add to the woe's of a Triumph clutch


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splash #826150 10/10/20 8:19 pm
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Hi Dave, Remember Triumph rollers are special size.
Get them from parts sellers. Check the new ones to verify they match spec in shop manual.

If the old rollers look perfect, measure to spec. Both inner & outer races good no real reason to change them.
In any case the rollers are not costly.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
TR7RVMan #826153 10/10/20 9:18 pm
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Originally Posted by TR7RVMan
Hi Dave, Remember Triumph rollers are special size.
Get them from parts sellers. Check the new ones to verify they match spec in shop manual.

If the old rollers look perfect, measure to spec. Both inner & outer races good no real reason to change them.
In any case the rollers are not costly.
Don
Don
Having a lot of sideward movement in the drive basket itself i'm thinking either rollers or thrust washer can't remove the cush rubber cover plate 3 bolts have been butchered mad waiting for basket removal tool to inspect those parts.Local parts supplier Norvil have offered me original rollers 57-0394 which are 1/4" x 6mm at £4-95p for 20

Cheers Dave


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
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splash #826158 10/10/20 10:15 pm
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Here are the numbers everyone has been waiting for.

https://ibb.co/zxK59tG

All plates on glass table. None warped 12 total and the first one shows circles where clutch basket was. Stacked correctly.

https://ibb.co/1ZfPztF

Any other photos needed for help? Oh compression spring length....
1.73
1.75
1.76

https://ibb.co/8xkMkzR

I believe I’m going to go lil bit tighter on the compression springs. 🤷🏻‍♂️ ? It’s hard to tell if slip or not without an accelerator pump on carb. Maybe I’m just psyching myself out.

Last edited by splash; 10/10/20 10:44 pm.

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splash #826163 10/10/20 10:53 pm
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To find slip, accelerate hard in 3rd gear on a steep hill, then change up around 6k , if the the clutch doesnt bite in top gear the motor revs will stay high then drop slowly, at this point you are cooking the clutch. keep doing it and the plain steels buckle and the friction plates wear out, after this the hub and all the plates are goosed.if the clutch hub cush spider is worn no amount of fresh plates and heavy springs will stop it slipping under full load.

You have 80 thou of wear from std 1.400.
Thats a lovely table, , if you can fit a 2 thou feeler under any of the steels at any place then the plates that take the feeler are fucked, no matter how nice the table is.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/10/20 10:57 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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splash #826167 10/10/20 11:16 pm
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My book shows 1 13/16" or 46.038 mm. it's a 72 book so it might not be the same. Get it working first. Then you can play with the adjustments. Listen to Gavin.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
splash #826168 10/10/20 11:36 pm
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Thanks Desco.
Hi Splash I am talking from bitter experience. 40 + years with a three spring clutch.
I know it all "looks " OK. But its not, your cush drive is fecked , new rubbers dont replace lost steel.

If the drum isnt too notched you might get away with new plates, complete new centre hub and thrust washer. Forget the bearings they have zero effect on slip, even new they are dissapointingly sloppy.
If the drum is notched then its hot plastic time.
New front sprocket, chain and clutch, ouch. But hey, youve fixed the top end, now you have to get that stuff to the back . hing in there.
And dont thing about going belt , that opens a whole can of worms with engine breathing.

If you do refresh the primary completly a whole lot of noise goes away. For a short while. And you will be able to find neutral from rest, woooh.

On a more open note, its amazing how often this crops up, folk spend money on the motor new this and that , crispy valves and such , and completely neglect the poor old trans which has had years of maladjustment , skipped oil changes and general abuse. The clutch is the most wearing part of it all. new plates and springs dont cut it when the hub chain and sprockets are all past their best..


I know i was yer dads bike, hopefully he rode it like it was meant, if he did , you need a new clutch

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/10/20 11:48 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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splash #826171 10/10/20 11:52 pm
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if you just have to get by you can stretch the budget by slimping on new chain sprockets and drum, file out notches in the drum and buy new flat steels, and a new centre hub, better still, get the 7 plate conversion, which is way better than stock and allows girly clutch pull . And this saves cables , double woo.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 10/11/20 12:13 am.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
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Cagiva Raptor 650
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splash #826179 10/11/20 4:28 am
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Hi Splash, Can you set you calipers to read in thousandths? It's reading in hundredths now.

What is the wire diameter of the spring? Should be about .098".

For what ever reason your springs are too short by .052" Factory spec is 1.812". This can lead to slip as well. You are starting with about a turn & half of nut with the short spring. But it depends on wire diameter as well.

Your stack height 1.320" according to calipers. So you need to go deeper than flush by .080" with spring nuts. That will compensate for the clutch wear. Remember this will not cause coil binding. This will bring nut position such to simply compensate for plate wear.

Should you reuse the current springs I'd go .052" deeper to compensate for the shortness.

You really should get new springs. I really like JRC engineering springs. They are very much to factory spec. That's the ones I like to use. Ask the seller the brand or buy direct from JRC. Kibble White would be 2nd choice.

So if you want to move forward with old springs, I'd go flush with nuts, then set caliper depth gauge to .132" Go that much deeper.

That would be 3.4 turns deeper. A little less than 3-1/2 turns.

If you go with dome of nut flush with studs. Then slightly under 3-1/2 turns deeper. Get new rod. Adjust it like I said in email, I'd expect the clutch even with the old springs would work good.

That would mean the spring itself is getting 1-1/3 turn more tension so not to spring binding at all.

If you go less then you should expect slip.

If you choose new JRC springs which I recommend, then go only only the .080" deeper.

After zooming in on your basket & drum, I don't see much grooving. It doesn't look like the back plate is very worn. How does it compare with the photos of mine I sent you?

You could try it with old springs adjusted as I suggested & see what happens. You're only out a few hours of labor.

If you use allen head bolts behind exhaust pipe on the bottom, cut an allan wrench short you can sneak the primary cover off without disturbing exhaust.

But I want to know the diameter of the spring wire first. You need to adjust settings on calipers first to measure accurately.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
splash #826198 10/11/20 2:20 pm
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Last time I bought a clutch center this is what I got;

https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/prod...er-for-triumph-complete-with-new-rubbers
Notice the bolts where the screws used to be. Much better.

Last edited by desco; 10/11/20 2:38 pm.

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Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
splash #826238 10/11/20 8:54 pm
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Noticed in one of the early pics Splash posted he was able to remove the clutch basket without removal of the rotor with this being a duplex chain anybody know if it's possible with a trplex chain( the old saying if it's not broke don't fix it comes to mind )

Cheers Dave


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
GT550 1974
TL1000 97s
Dave Lid #826271 10/12/20 4:36 am
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Originally Posted by Dave Lid
Noticed in one of the early pics Splash posted he was able to remove the clutch basket without removal of the rotor with this being a duplex chain anybody know if it's possible with a trplex chain( the old saying if it's not broke don't fix it comes to mind )

Cheers Dave
Only time I was able to do this on my A65 was when I broke the clutch hub. Maybe with a seriously worn out primary chain?


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
splash #826336 10/12/20 7:00 pm
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Hi desco, From the photos of Lowbrow, cush hub. It looks exactly like the one I purchased about a year ago. The part # stamp on outer plate is a clue. Mine came in a sealed LF Harris box.

Overall the quality is pretty good. On the example I purchased the spline was not at all a tight fit on to small hub. Play in this spline can lead to spline wear & loosening of the clutch nut. I feel in this case it's extra important to have a good fitting lock nut & use loctite 242 or preferably 243 Blue.

I my mind the version with the 3 hex bolts is superior to the old countersink screw version. I would always use the later 3 bolt version during replacement on earlier machines.

Price varies a fair amount for the exact same part. If needed I always ask seller the maker of the part.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
splash #826338 10/12/20 7:13 pm
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I Loctite just about everything that has splines or a Woodruff key, in the transmission system.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
splash #826339 10/12/20 7:15 pm
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Hi Dave Lid, While it may be possible to work basket out of chain on 3 row it is easier? That's up to the individual. Backing off chain tensioner is needed. I attempted to remove my new cush hub & basket & found it easier to just pull crank sprocket with 3 row chain.

Even a very worn 3 row chain has minimal side flex so I really had to work at getting chain over teeth on basket. It proved too much trouble for me. I ended up pulling crank sprocket. Crank sprocket pull/install is simple. The part I don't like is dealing with the stator wire. As we know it gets hard & stiff. Easy to fracture it. I always pull wire with stator as to not flex the stiff part. I'll either remove stator completely or hang it up by cyl head with wire still through primary. Early bikes with wire going out by rear sprocket are really hard to remove. But you have to deal with boot. I'll warm the wires as needed to assure flexibility to reduce chances of wire damage. Old Triumphs present lots of challenges.

One issue I found is on all the original T140 type 3 row chain bikes with original factory parts is the cush hub is very tight press fit on splines. This makes it very difficult to remove from small hub. The entire hub pulls off as easy as sliding spline. The on assembly, you'd be beating the main shaft bearing silly driving it back on. That's been my experience on T140.

On 650s I've found the spline is light press fit or a push fit. That makes things possible.

However in splash's case, it worked ok for him.

Don


1973 Tiger 750
splash #826348 10/12/20 8:21 pm
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Thanks for advice David/Don clutch removal tool arrived today so it's look's like both are coming off,i see what you mean about the stator wire it's rock hard.It's got to come off as iv'e got to drill the three bolts out the cover to access the cush rubbers mad frown


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
GT550 1974
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splash #826374 10/12/20 10:34 pm
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...hello; I did that loctite thing many times in the past with my 500; never with the 750. I do not see any difference if you put the 70 pounds that the manual specify for the later models.
I dismantled the clutch about three times now with this 750 and did about 12000km or more (I have been having the speedometer cable broken three times)

What about the thicker washer behind the clutch nut that is too tight always? At some point I decided to file it a bit to make things easier but may be is not good for the clutch? I do not know. I did not perceived the difference.

Hi Dave Lid; what type of tool you are waiting? I do not see any tools to sell to remove those parts...only couple of sockets.

Thanks

splash #826399 10/13/20 5:38 am
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The only other bike I have with a triplex primary chain is my Trident. The alternator is on the timing side, but I still must pull both the engine sprocket and the chain wheel as one.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
reverb #826429 10/13/20 2:52 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
Hi Dave Lid; what type of tool you are waiting? I do not see any tools to sell to remove those parts...only couple of sockets.

Thanks

Hi Reverb yeh it's the clutch center extractor tool D662/3 hadn't got one frown


Always remember there are 3 kinds of people in this world,those that can count & those that can't.
T140V 1974
GT750 1974
GT550 1974
TL1000 97s
splash #826482 10/13/20 6:06 pm
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Hi Dave, I grind the tips of the 3 bolts off slightly deeper than flush using cut off wheel in Dremel tool. Drilling would work also, but with the swaging slot it makes it hard to drill for me.

In any case fully remove the swaging to prevent damage the threads in front plate.

I always use blue Loctite & peen end of bolt to insure they cannot back out.

Using your new puller be sure to take a pick & clean threads in hub. As you can see the tool only effectively holds by about 3 threads. With clean threads gently wrench tighten tool into hub to be sure its bottomed into hub threads. Gently. Grease threads of pressure screw liberally, Grease tip also.

T140 crank sprockets are generally a press fit. A puller is usually needed. Automotive vibration damper puller works perfectly.

No need to back off chain. Pull both at same time. Start with crank sprocket. Move it out slightly always feeling chain for sideways binding. Stop when chain just begins to bind. Then pop clutch of main shaft. Finish pulling sprocket as you hold clutch moving out with sprocket.

Pay close attention to position & thickness of spacers. There are shims against crank bearing which can stick to spacer. Watch for them. Don’t forget to remove rotor key.

Going back on you’ll have to drive sprocket to get it started. It’s hard on crank bearing when driving it. I have some cut pipe I use with large flat washers & a nut to pull sprocket the rest of the way.

The rotor stud end of crank can come out with nut... It has long & short threads. Pay attention to that. Short thread goes into crank. Otherwise nut will bottom on threads such it feels tight, but not actually pinching rotor & sprocket tight. This wears key way & crank/sprocket splines.

Use torque wrench for sure. No guessing. I always use blue Loctite on both crank & clutch nuts.

There is lock tab or star washer for crank nut. Verify the lock tab is actually entering keyway. Common for it not to actually reach it. Bend tab as needed if you have the tab washer lock.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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