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Well'ard Rocker
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Originally Posted by BeezaBryan
Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
It says a lot about or for the cultures who do not believe in possessions and see themselves as the aretakers of the planet .

Possesions are the down fall of all western cultures

Very philosophical Trevor, but i don't know of a culture that sees itself that way when they have experienced
living in a civilised culture. They all want more and once they see a way to get it, they chase it.

The 19th century French anarchist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon is quoted as saying that all property is theft

We had a guy like that.

"Imagine no possessions ... it's easy if you try ...."

I think he had about $300,000,000 when he died. So much for despising property. I'll bet the French dude wouldn't like it much if someone came and took all HIS stuff ... ! Theory and poetry and philosophy are great, but when you start messing with people's "stuff", that's the end of THAT!

Lannis


"Why do you wear that thing, Dobby?" "This, sir? 'Tis a mark of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir."
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Property is not the problem, it's the lust for other people's property.
Just as it's not money, but the love of money which is the root of all evil.


Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens.

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Belief systems and ignorance are at the root of most armed conflicts.

NickL #830757 11/23/20 10:50 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
It says a lot about or for the cultures who do not believe in possessions and see themselves as the aretakers of the planet .

Possesions are the down fall of all western cultures

Very philosophical Trevor, but i don't know of a culture that sees itself that way when they have experienced
living in a civilised culture. They all want more and once they see a way to get it, they chase it.

Go and have a long talk to some of the local black fellas .
Now my only experience with the indiginous population was the 4 years I lived in Redfern and of course these were urbanised .
Very generous people when they had money and expected you to return that generosity when they had none.
I had to walk around 3 blocks to avoid walkig past a pub where some locals I had become friends with drank.
Pension week I got dragged in no way to leave before closing & hand never needed to go into pocket .
Off week I would be expected to return the hospitality and buy everyone drinks till the pockets were empty or the pub closed .
And material possesions really were shared. The one guitar would be played by dozens of peopled during the night and the owner did not care.
you wanted to play & they did not feel like it so have a strum.
Motor vehicles were the same & my kombi did more miles with one of them behind the wheel than me .

And I would really like to know how you define civilised ?
Driving tanks through a Islamic country flying religiously offensive christian flags ?
Buying a factory because the land is worth more than what they produce, sacking everyone knowing that many will be forced into poverty ?
paying your self a massive bonus then filing for bankruptcy and shafting your creditors to the tune of $ 900,000 as Briggs & Stratton just did while moving the factory to another state because you can pay the workers less for doing the same work there ?


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knuckle head
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You are simplifying the Briggs and Stratton situation.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Originally Posted by bmwr90s
Hello, Art! Nice to see you posting here, how ya doin these days?


"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

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'Pension day'
'Pubs'.
'Kombi'
'Guitar'
All indigenous products eh?

Your experience is different from mine. Lets leave it at that.

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Hi Tom, just keeping my head down, keeping clear of the next firestorm beginning in 2021. Down to 2 bikes, probably going to sell the Norton next. Love the bike but my bones are getting to brittle to chance riding it anymore. Anyway, thanks for asking and hope everything's all good with you.

Art


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knuckle head
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The photos of the Japanese are memorable, especially the few shwing them smiling...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You are simplifying the Briggs and Stratton situation.

So what part of setting aside $ 13,000,000 for executive payouts which was more than the defaulted loan repayment , not paying the $ 900,000,000 to creditors or shifting the main factory from Wisconsin to NY is over simplification ? .
I appreciate protecting their loans by buying Murray , Victa & Simplicity because they were all likely to go bust put a stretch on finances.

But paying yourself knowing that there will be no money to pay the pensions of workers who have been loyal to you for generation is not civilised , over here it is criminal .


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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
You are simplifying the Briggs and Stratton situation.

So what part of setting aside $ 13,000,000 for executive payouts which was more than the defaulted loan repayment , not paying the $ 900,000,000 to creditors or shifting the main factory from Wisconsin to NY is over simplification ? .
I appreciate protecting their loans by buying Murray , Victa & Simplicity because they were all likely to go bust put a stretch on finances.

But paying yourself knowing that there will be no money to pay the pensions of workers who have been loyal to you for generation is not civilised , over here it is criminal .
So why would they move to NY with taxes and wages equal to Wisconsin . Do you know why? Briggs aquired Ferris and Snapper commercial mowers that are manufactured in NY. Then Moved the production to a bigger facitly in a nearby town..
You should include why this all happened instead of concentrating on the corporate greed. Briggs and Stratton main small engine business was the lower end equipment that was being primarily sold by high volume home improvement stores. The big stores starting dictating the prices they would pay, take or leave it. Briggs cut costs anyway they could...Not an excuse but just what happened.


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The photos of the Japanese are memorable, especially the few shwing them smiling...

It's always hard to break the barrier between an army made of individual soldiers following orders, realizing that they're just people in many ways, and at the same time not to have sympathy for the Australians when they realized that IF the Japanese got there, they would be tortured, raped, exploited and killed just like the Manchurians were ...

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Nobody smiling there!

We don't often get to see both sides.

If you can find it, I highly recommend the short book "Shelters for the Self", which is a diary found on a Japanese-held island in the Pacific of a Japanese petty officer who kept a daily record of what was happening to them as they were gradually pushed off the island.

Lannis


"Why do you wear that thing, Dobby?" "This, sir? 'Tis a mark of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir."
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In a small copse near the wharf where we sometimes leave our car when we go walking Cromford Canal

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

Most people walk by without seeing this

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


Blessed are the curious for they shall have adventures

"He knows not where he's going,
For the ocean will decide,
Its not the destination,
It's the glory of the ride"
(Edward Monkton, Zen Dog)

Bryan
who does not do politics


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Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The photos of the Japanese are memorable, especially the few shwing them smiling...

It's always hard to break the barrier between an army made of individual soldiers following orders, realizing that they're just people in many ways, and at the same time not to have sympathy for the Australians when they realized that IF the Japanese got there, they would be tortured, raped, exploited and killed just like the Manchurians were ...

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Nobody smiling there!

We don't often get to see both sides.

If you can find it, I highly recommend the short book "Shelters for the Self", which is a diary found on a Japanese-held island in the Pacific of a Japanese petty officer who kept a daily record of what was happening to them as they were gradually pushed off the island.

Lannis

On the other hand read Flyboys ,true story of tortue and cannibalism done by the Japanese to captured American airmen....Of course not all Japanese military were animals.......


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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https://www.tnmagazine.org/former-german-soldier-recalls-life-at-crossville-pow-camp/
https://tennesseeencyclopedia.net/entries/pow-camps-in-world-war-ii/

The locals still call it Jap Camp, even though no Japanese prisoners ever stayed there. I think the camp was originally built to keep Japanese Americans.


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Allied prisoners-of-war in Singapore thanking their Australian liberators
[Linked Image from s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com]
Approximately 140 thousand Allied troops ,
British , Canadian
Indian , Australian
New Zealanders , Dutch
and Americans were held at more than 100 different Japanese work camps , as slave labor .
By the time of Japanese surrender
more than 30,000 POWs had died from starvation, disease, and mistreatment .

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And on the other side of the coin we have this:

https://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/a-german-pow-escapes-wwii-prison-camp-in-stark-n-h/

There is a book about the camp called Stark Decency, a good read if you can find it. It makes you wonder about the nature of national culture, especially in light of the camps that existed in Germany.


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The Luftwaffe ran the POW camps for captured Allied airmen except for Russians....The majority of Luftwaffe were not Nazi party members. Generally speaking, the Germans treated them with some respect...However escapees were shot at...and there were food and supply shortages...The POW officers were housed separately from the enlisted men...And the enlited men could by Geneva convention be forced to do some labor..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Well'ard Rocker
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Luftwaffe ran the POW camps for captured Allied airmen except for Russians....The majority of Luftwaffe were not Nazi party members. Generally speaking, the Germans treated them with some respect...However escapees were shot at...and there were food and supply shortages...The POW officers were housed separately from the enlisted men...And the enlited men could by Geneva convention be forced to do some labor..

I had an interesting first-hand account from a guy I worked with for years, Ed Luce. He was a US Army infantryman in December 1944, whose outfit was caught behind German lines during the German push in the "Battle of the Bulge". Either an "88" or a mortar shell landed in the middle of his rifle squad; when he came to, he was the only one left, his rifle was gone, and a German soldier standing over him. They took him prisoner and took him to a LuftStalag in northern Germany.

I asked him about life there. He said that the Germans were decent to the POWs. There wasn't a lot to eat, but everyone in the camp got three meals a day, which was more than most anyone else in northern Europe including German civilians (the coldest one in memory) had that year.

He told me "If you want to know what the camp looked like, put on an old episode of 'Hogan's Heroes'. Whoever was the consultant for setting up that camp had actually been in one, because it was perfect. The guard towers, the way the wire was strung, the prisoner barracks, the Commandant's offices, the furnishings, it was all identical to the one I was at ...."

In April 1945, the Germans took their weapons and vehicles and disappeared down the road, leaving the gate unlocked. The POWs took over the camp and awaited the ground troops .... Ed wore two hearing aids his whole life from that shell blast ... very interesting guy who lived through tough times.

Lannsi


"Why do you wear that thing, Dobby?" "This, sir? 'Tis a mark of the house-elf’s enslavement, sir."
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In contrast is the treatment in Japanese a POW camps as described in the book Unbroken.. I consider the book to be one of the best stories of survival under brutal conditions...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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i grew up in southeast asia. the japaneze were hated there for their brutality during the war. even today i recommend that you do not the eat food in an american chinese reztaurant in the company of zomeone who is recognizably japaneze.


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
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There is a recent film out called The Railway Man that gives a decent perspective of what it was like to be a prisoner of the Japanese. Came across it while channel surfing one night and was glad I did. A little bit different than the story told on Bridge On the River Kwai

Last edited by MikeG; 11/27/20 8:41 pm.

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There are theories or truth that a lot of the horrible treatment of the Japanese to civililian and and POW's was rouge officers and not necessarily orders from higher up. and also the Bushido warriors code never to surrender and an enemy who surrenders is less than human. It's said than Japanese soldiers were beat during training to make them nasty..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,61 A10 .On a bike you can out run the demons..
“But I don't want to go among mad people,” Alice remarked. “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
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Where I grew up some of the Italian POWs became the ice creams shop folk, German Geordie worked the farms and taught me some new swear words. must dig out dads pics in France, he was a Black Devil, the tank has manhole covers welded on for extra armour ( Didnae work).


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DOPE
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japanese naval and airforce cadets were brutalized in training.

also, in some places tge worst atrocitiez were at the hands of the occupation forces, not the frontline troops. in the philippines the eta --expatriate koreans in service to imperial japan-- had especially bad reputations. like the deathcamp kapos, they were themsvelves abused.

this does not excuze the japanez e frontline troops who terrorized nanking for some three months, murdering between 100000 and 300000 chinese civilians.
lookup rape of nanking for images tgat chinese photolabs duplicated of the japaneze zoldiers celebrating their victory.


i'm old enough to remember when patriotism meant not trying to overthrow the government.
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